Mike Bickle International House of Prayer Founder Accused of Sexual Misconduct

this is Mike pickle he's the founder of International House of Prayer in Kansas City and he agreed to step down from Ministry after he was accused of sexual misconduct but by sexual misconduct words is hard by multiple women not that we should have to but let's talk about how this breaks the church and how to fix it this is Church's

lame I I feel like we should be eating pancakes from talking about this story thank you for like I set it up you smack it down yeah I think it's very fitting that the acronym for this church is uh IHOP because it's all sweet and carbs and no good for you oh yeah all right so we've done a couple of these kind of stories in the past we're going to try to present this to you with maybe a new point point of view and a new take on it but this is everything horrible that you think it is Mike Bickle the IHOP the International House of prayers announc that he will not be preaching or teaching he will not be interacting with the public or on social media or participating in the church's 24-hour prayer room these allegations span several decades quote we have found these allegations of clergy sexual abuse by Mike Bickle to be credible and long standing unquote The credibility of these allegations is not based on anyone experience or anyone victim but the collective and cooperating testimony of the experiences of several victims I it all sounds fairly damning it all sounds fair but once again this is all part for the course right nothing new and part for the course and this to me is the even more infuriating infuriating words is hard the even more infuriating part than just the sexual abuse is instantly they go into not my fault quote when these allegations were brought to our attention we were shocked we could never have imagined inappropriate conduct with women as something we would never need to be concerned about the allegation seemed out of character to the man we thought we knew but they were so serious we could not ignore them so this is not the guy we know and love but hey there's allegation out there we take it seriously I that's that's pretty good on its own but um you know like I have this this General concern that like the International House of Prayer is some kind of like a cult you know sort of a thing I mean like I know it's it's it's it's a Pentecostal thing and you like their whole deal is like they're trying to do you know like like have this place be open you know 24/7 so people can come in and pray and and do whatever they're going to do but like a dude that I used to know for a while was very involved with it and just like the way he described it it's it's a weird place from what like like most of us are used to in a church and maybe it's just because it's such a different thing that it just seems off to me yeah but like when you can have you know some girl wander in there at you know 3: in the morning and the only person there is like some like one staff member you're sort of setting yourself up for failure yeah it's interesting like rarely have I seen a parent Church organization that so finely hones down into like this is what we're about we are just an organization that believes in seeing God's power and miracles work through prayer alone why would you think that you could like ignore the rest of the Bible and just like we're just this one thing that just kind of befuddles me and that that sense that a group of people could collectively say yeah this this is the path forward there's so much to the Christian Life that yeah like to single out one thing seems super wacky but I guess if I'm going to give it the benefit of the doubt I mean it's kind of cool that you would have a place dedicated to 247 prayer where people can come together without having to schedule they can just come to this place and do that yeah it's like there is also like that threat and we've talked about it before right where it's like if you spend you know all your time in prayer about something but you never actually never to do it then like how is God supposed to work through you in doing it it's like you're just offloading all that responsibility like God you take care of this I don't want to do anything yeah I think it's an interesting dichotomy right on the one hand on the one end of the spectrum for those of you who don't believe in spectrums the church is full of them on the one end of the spectrum you have Prosperity churches name it claim it uh celebrity pastorship right we are just going to collect lots of money and get rich um we're going to tell you how to live your best life now and how how to be Purpose Driven how to feel good about yourself but we're not actually going to do much good in the world we're just going to tell you we're just going to have you buy a book or a DVD set or listen to our online sermon series so you can get better as a personal thing and then what you do with your life is up to you right that's one end and then like it seems like International House of Prayer is like another end of the like we're also not going to do anything of significance in this world but by all means come into our buildings throw some money in the pot and pray your heart away you know it's just amazing how many different ways there are to do nothing you know the church is just full of the best ideas of how to do nothing exactly I mean maybe second only to you know like the the marketing firms that that do work for you know fossil fuel companies but true enough I still think that the church comes out ahead on this it's like a lot of this whole well like if you just believe the right things and you think the right things then God will transform you and then you'll do stuff not like if you try to go where God is doing stuff or you like ask God to empower you to do the stuff that you're doing like then he will work so it it seems a bit weird I mean like when I'm reading the Old Testament it's a lot of hey you dummy you know get up and do the thing exactly um you know it's like my my next sermon that I'm preparing is on you know Joshua which is fun because he yells at the Israelites for basically being you know impotent and unable to follow God right you know but it's like because it's on them to do the thing I mean God will give us some sort of a power but like yeah we do need to to act exactly there's so much Focus now on should be to be the the most satisfying version of you that you can be and and as you get there and once you attain it that is equivalent to living the spiritual life and nothing could be further from the truth like you said the spiritual life is is a life of doing there's a thing that needs to be done and we are here to do it and and it has nothing to do with how you feel about yourself you know ask ask the Israelites who are wandering in the deserts for years and years how they felt about themselves ask them how like when they were when uh you know they were slaves to Pharaoh how they felt about themselves you know that is how you feel about yourself couldn't be further from the point the work that's been set before us is what's about so right after this break we're going to talk about like how this breaks the church beyond what just made Mark and I mad right off the

cuff all right we're back how this breaks the church I've got some thoughts boy any of them are like painfully obvious all of them are painfully obvious yes that's my favorite hopefully our rage will be entertaining right even though my doctor is quite um persistent telling me that my rage is not helpful to anybody I beg to disagree yeah totally okay so first what level of whiplash do you have to have to go to the emergency room having turned your Collective leadership heads so quickly time and time again over the decades ignoring this guy's misdeeds to put it nicely you know what I mean it's kind of like there's no way you can be in relationship with this guy on a personal or professional or ministerial level and not know what's going on the amount of times and the amount of people who just kind of go oh I know nothing I see nothing I hear nothing I feel nothing it's just unfathomable it's not just this dude that should be losing his position it should be all the people that enabled it in the first place CU cuz you know the leadership of this organization you know when they were seeing just all the stuff of the Catholic Church they were shaking their fingers and being well like see this is what happens when you don't let your priests marry you know they they get their thing with children maybe should have precipitated them going hey what can we do to make sure that our organization and our staff doesn't fall into that trap but that never seems to be the reaction right you know never yep okay let's keep this train rolling dude number two what kind of idiot level leadership doesn't instantly can this guy like fire him like Walking Papers here you go what was it my father-in-law says don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you well I mean it it takes time to like really figure out like what kind of golden parachute to give somebody exactly right like can do we do we just give him a year salary or do we give him 5 years salary for going away quietly yeah and idiot level leadership is unfortunately super common everywhere and like we've complained about it and like we've like we anybody listening to this like you've had a job you know what we're talking about just and it's like they have they didn't they didn't even fire him they just sidelined him over these allegations yeah it's like fire the guy like it's not like you don't have grounds it's right there in the Bible above reproach and the thing is like you you use the word and the in the article you that we've seen all use the word allegedly right allegedly cuz it's it's an allegation it's not something that's been proved in court so it's like I think that's kind of the excuse like well if if we park the person off to this like like we we park them off behind the building you know we we put a rain cover over them you know and like then we just we'll deal with that once we get the hard details I mean it's not the worst thing that we've seen I mean as long as the guy's not maybe still on the payroll then it feels a bit janky no if he didn't if he wasn't fired he has to be on the payroll right I mean you could always suspend somebody so they's still you know legally an employee or whatever these are hairs we shouldn't have to split is my point yeah I mean it's it's just like like they did like it's like the article said you know multiple credible Witnesses in the church we don't need to like have the legal system dictate how we react to that kind of behavior we can take the initiative and go you know what you don't work here anymore sorry don't call us for a reference bye-bye yeah absolutely okay moving on you and I talk about this constantly people think we're broken records at this point radical accountability radical transparency right yet another example how the most prominent people in leadership in all of these mega churches and Prosperity Gospel places and name your big Christian organization the most prominent people in leadership put themselves in the position of being the least known among the people among the leaders among the congregation there are the people that you know the least even though they talk the most I've got no response for that yeah it's it's the weirdest thing right once again what is a pastor you are at at the very least like the smallest definition is you are a professional Communicator right you get up on that Pulpit once a week and you have a 20-minute message so you would think that communicating the same message to a large number of people every flipping week somebody would get to know the real you it it's my contention that the people that got the know real himym just kept turning their faces and turning away from the abuse happening and then everybody else who's shocked and appalled they were lured in by the facade instead of the reality of not only this man but International Hair H is hard International House of Prayer we about to see International

heresy probably not too far from the truth as you alluded to in the beginning do we even have to say this at this point but cheating on your spouse and sexually abusing women is bad and you shouldn't do it ever I mean like I don't know man like Bible seems kind of like big gray area here right yeah I mean I think the Bible actually goes in the opposite direction and holds up women and affirms their place of of not even not even just Authority but of respect of centrality within the church and centrality within the family like women are not to be abused women are to be cherished right the same way the way the same way that men are to be respected and cherished women are to be respected and cherished they are not sub anything right they are not our play things that we use and dispose of they're not like cars you know like let's I'll just sell it because you know the newest model is boring to me you know yeah and that yeah so I I just don't even understand how anybody who claims to be a Jesus follower excuses this instead of at least at the very least admit that there's something wrong with you even if you're not going to fix it at least admit like man I've got to screw loose in a major way but that doesn't seem to be What's Happening Here uh this dude just seems to be like man I'm doing my job uh and happens in my personal life my business my business I'm doing business I'm a businessman let me know if you get that reference uh internet I certainly don't get the reference but um oh are you are you not old enough for Beverly Hills Cop oh my gosh um I mean I'm old enough I just maybe haven't watched it since I was 16 oh it's one of the few truly excellent Eddie Murphy movies you know from like the beginning of his movie career like now like now with the Dr dittle and stuff he's doing all sorts of cool things but in the beginning there were like some hits and a whole lot of Misses yeah but the original Beverly Hills Cop I'm a businessman I'm doing business and if you can't see me because you're listen to the audio podcast I'm snapping my fingers and waving them around very uh very crazily okay all right I know but so obvious but like here's the thing is like you like bringing up Eddie Murphy of course like Eddie Murphy is the kind of person that like you know like we look at as being kind of like this whole other type of being right because like he's this professional actor he's a comedian you know he's he's got this skill set and pastors are often treated the same way whereas you know Eddie Murphy has placed very much in the public eye you know and you've got Paparazzi will follow him and try to catch him in whatever Mischief he might get into um we don't have Paparazzi for pastors um I mean maybe maybe we need that or like some sort of like I don't know like like like apple uh needs to make like a a chastity belt for pastors or something will like text us when they're like you know being touched in the naughty place or something I don't know I how's that for a hot take yeah that's a hot take that I'm I'm not sure I'm going to go there with you that might be a step too far but I hear what you're saying right we need better systems of accountability than just hey man we trust you when you go in communicado from the hours of 8 to midnight when you should be home with your family you know yeah I mean and pastors it sucks to have to say it but like we should never treat our pastors like they're some sort of different species of Christian like they're they're just normal Christians that have happen to have a skill set of getting in front of people and and talking about I mean theoretically what's in the Bible unless you're Joel ostein which you just Babble on about random nonsense um but like the longer I think too like the longer we know somebody the more we we trust them right that can also lead to like a decrease in the amount of scrutiny that a person receives that's dangerous and I think that's a great segue into our how to fix the church so let's take a break and as soon as we're back from our break we'll talk about how to fix the

church so how do we fix it let me say this um as a setup all right we tend to think about pastoral care as a circle right you see lots of pastors kind of um flame out like when they're young and right out of Seminary like their youth and their enthusiasm will take them through this period and then at a certain point all the work and so little care that that's reciprocated back tends to Flame them out right and what's happening is the pastors put all this time and energy and Care into their congregations and nobody ever told them it's not your congregation's job to put that care back into you yeah right their job is to learn from you and then to go out into the world and and do cool stuff for the for the sake of the Gospel right the job of caring for you should have been taken on by people through your journey right your the pastors before you your Seminary teachers your mentors as you were interning at churches and coming on staff as a young person all these other figures um who've been there who've managed not to flame out and come out the other side solid and healthy with solid family am and a clear expectation of what their job is and what their job isn't right those are the people who are supposed to be caring for you so it's not a circle it's more like a tree where you know Jesus is the roots and the and the and the trunk and then we have limbs that come out it's like generations of people caring for the next generation of people caring for the next generation of people and that's how the cycle of care should go and that's what we need to fix is the uh is like the circular thing doesn't work because anybody can break the circle at any time yeah it's important to to note you know that that we need systems of care to be in place not merely the intention it it needs to be something well laid out and well thought out and very clear because the moment there's ambiguity you know and who's responsible for what you can fall into failure you know failing to plan is planning to fail you know like that sort of a thing so it's like like never like we shouldn't be afraid of of having to have to make those systems exactly as as people in churches because they are they are for your protection and the protection of your your brothers and sisters in Christ that's a good thing exact exactly right and so I say that as a setup so if we have that care cycle set up correctly then we can talk about the accountability cycle yeah and the accountabil in my opinion the accountability cycle can be circular right so the pastor is accountable to teach and to Steward and to prepare his flock to do the work of the Kingdom right that's the pastor's job and that's what the the congregation holds him accountable to do his job and he holds the congregation accountable to learn and be teachable to be sponges to take what he says for 30 minutes or an hour and not just disregard it but to take it and put it into action and there can be that Circ where yes I as a as a congregation expect something from you as a pastor and you as a pastor expect something from us and one of the things we expect from you is not to cheat on your wife and abuse women and the minute you do that we are going to string you up and set you on Fire H you know I that's that's why my church has a barrel naal handy just in case you know it's like you know you should definitely have something flammable and something that creates a spark somewhere nearby yeah at all times you know and then you know of course robes and feathers and tar just for every occasion be prepared I'm here for it okay and then of course I'm going to let you have the final word with what should always be the final word on fixing this problem radical transparency and accountability thank you very much it's my best I I can't even do an Elvis voice because my my voice just doesn't go that L like thank you thank you very much yeah exactly radical transparency of course like we have to be willing not only be be transparent in ourselves but we have to be uh what's the word we have to be Fearless in expecting transparency from others like look if you're not willing to be transparent in your life then you are not qualified to be the pastor of our church very much so and we need to as you know people go to churches you know we need to you know create a culture of I'll say safety you know like we should always like our church is right we should always be a safe place for people to talk about their challenges and their difficulties I'm not saying that like we have to be able to like you know get up on you know in front of the pulpit and just confess every sin we've ever done to people right it's not a 12ep program right at the same time um if somebody were to do that the church shouldn't you know be reacting you know being appalled they should you know react with with love um and you know and and of course you know if what something somebody has done you requires that you take them out of a position of leadership or responsibility you you do that in order to deal with the sin exactly right we've talked about this a lot and it's important that we keep talking about it discipleship discipline discipline is not punishment discipline is simply you know like when you drive the car and you fall asleep and you hit the rumble strips and you go oh I need to I need to correct myself I need the discipline to get back between the lines of safety and that's what we're talking about here we're not talking about punishing people we're talking about a healthy church is a disciplined church and discipline is everywhere the congregation the leadership the the paid staff the unpaid staff the whole experience is a disciplined experience where people who come in the door who've never met Jesus they are altogether undisciplined in their faith and it takes a lifetime of doing this together and we refine our discipline yeah I think I think that's all that needs to be said yeah well hopefully that's not all that needs to be said or else we'd be out of a job well I mean you know given that we're you know 29 minutes into recording this I hear that

okay so we are churches lame you may have listened to this episode and think Man Mark and Scott they really have it out for the church and nothing could be further from the TR truth words is hard we love the church we participate in church we want to see churches do better but we can't do that if all we ever talk about is the cool stuff right we got to be willing to talk about the things that can be done better and we think things like not sexually abusing women is probably something that can be improved upon right so if you got something to say please uh like YouTube we we love comments there you know give us thumbs down the thumbs up the super thanks and all that stuff podcast give us a rating and review with your favorite podcast player or or if you if you have like a lot to say shoot us an email churches Lan podcast gmail.com and with that go in peace and serve the Lord and keep the matches handy hey if you got something out of this episode you want to see more content just like that up above one of my shoulders here is going to be a card that says leadership lunacy feel free to to click on that to check out more episodes just like this thanks a lot